Based on the discussions we have had in the DM section and GES's question under the new webpage thread, there seems to be some confusion regarding "No Risk".

Since I strongly believe that the best way to keep the standards high, and work together for everyone's fun, is to openly discuss potential confusion, I'm opening the thread.

My vision of "No Risk" is basically just that. If you can run through a series of combats without any risk to you, then something is wrong. Now, I don't suggest that you must end up on your deathbed every battle for it to be "fair". I simply don't want to see the below suggestions done repeatedly so people can just waltz through dungeons without any challenge or risk.

The suggestions I have used are not all enclusive. Again, the core to the discussion is "No Risk". Also, for those statistic majors out there, don't fall back that, "Well, there is a .00001% chance that my 30th lvl summon is stunned 98 times in a row and could be killed by that goblin so therefore it isn't without ANY risk..." to explain your actions. Using the "GAME TECHNICS in an unrealistic manner" is what we are looking at.

1. Using Hide in Plain Sight to strike, fade, strike, fade, strike (aka "flicker fighting") so that you can hit the creature, fade out before it can return attack, then when it stops it's attack, hitting it again, then fade to repeat. It is not realistic to expect an opponent to get hit, but because you faded out immediately, for him to go, "Oh, I have a dagger in my chest but I don't see anyone. I'll just go back to wandering in a circle..."

Use it to get a first strike, even use it on occasion, but if I see it happening for battle after battle, that's not acceptable.

2. Using a pet (Summons, Familiar, purchased pet) in a way that keeps a PC from risk. I recognize this is a tough call, but that is why I expect PC's to help regulate themselves. Mages are squishy. It's a fact. However, don't summon your Dire hamster, buff him up to the point that he can snub the nose of a dragon, and then run in a circle 'kiting' an opponent so that the creature can rip it's back out chasing it. We all know the game technics tend to ignore the creature and chase the mage, even if the mage isn't doing the damage. Use tactics. Use web, or traps, or something to slow the creature. Protect yourself as well.

Now, don't misunderstand, I don't expect PC's to just stand there and get mauled, so again, it's more a case of repetition. If you run because the monster is chasing you, but it's not happening battle after battle after battle, then that's tactics (and a bit of fear! )

3. Using the "out of sight, out of mind" tactic for archers. Game technics say that if you are out of sight of the monster, in most cases you aren't going to be attacked. So, many archers have stood just outside the "sight" range, but within the bow range and picked off an opponent while the rest of the group just sit there and watch their life long buddy get pincushioned. Let's look at that realistically. You are in the woods around a fire with your buddies. You turn and see "timmy" filled full of arrows coming out of the darkness, but after looking around, you see nothing within the sight range. Would YOU just shrug your shoulders and go, "Wow, that looks like it hurts Timmy, but I don't see anyone so there must not be any danger. Want another burger on the grill?" and turn back to your campfire?



I'm not looking at single issues or instant decisions on this. Everyone knows if they are doing it repeatedly or not and the risk of their actions. The DM's don't want to be babysitters and we really don't think we need to. You are all adults and truly, this description is only directed at the few who "just don't get it". However, I can't give them warnings, unless it's written down and guidance has been given. So, help us to help your peers if you see them doing something that warrants.

Ye know, number 3 can be alleviated very easily. Scriptable:
* If physically attacked and not in combat:
- Attack your attacker, when in visible range.
When not in visible range run in the direction of your attacker until percieved. (frankly, if attacked by arrow it shouldn't be too hard to find the opposite direction of the shaft).

Also "Shout" an alarm, causing any monsters within a 10ish ft radius of the attacked monster to move along with.

Should prevent the "let's just stay out of range" exploit (which I know is used... a lot).

Aeternus wrote: Ye know, number 3 can be alleviated very easily. Scriptable:
* If physically attacked and not in combat:
- Attack your attacker, when in visible range.
When not in visible range run in the direction of your attacker until percieved. (frankly, if attacked by arrow it shouldn't be too hard to find the opposite direction of the shaft).

Also "Shout" an alarm, causing any monsters within a 10ish ft radius of the attacked monster to move along with.

Should prevent the "let's just stay out of range" exploit (which I know is used... a lot).

If that can be added, that would be a great help. Always great to have a skilled eye looking at what can be done. Obviously scriptable fixes is MUCH better than DM intervention. Add it where you deem feasible to the already massive list of "things to do" you already have.

Does this include things like ninja looting?

I know I'm new and it's not up to me, but I'm going to voice my suggestion.

I suggest that with the monster shout out to his buddies for reinforcements, that you make the circle smaller, or script it in someway to provide for the following tactic.

One tactic is to select one prey that's migrated away from the group and see if I can't get it to follow me over here, away from shouting distance of the group, then do battle with only that loner. (Timmy went off to pee but didn't come back.) Why is this a good tactic and not an exploit? I'll give my reason and leave the verdict up to you. I'd do this if I knew the group had a very good chance of slaughtering me, but that if I fought 1 monster at a time then I could probably survive.

Before this week, I hadn't played NWN for months, so it's possible that what I described never happens in NWN for whatever reason. Maybe NWN monsters don't mill about adequately to provide that opportunity. But I've seen that tactic used in another game. If I screwed up and my target was close enough to draw his friends, I usually ended up running away for my life or dying. Was in a game system where dying had minimal penalties, and risky situations were ways to pass the time by yourself. Yeah, yeah, this is not that other game. But now I've given my suggestion, and I can rest in peace.

DarkSolena wrote: I know I'm new and it's not up to me, but I'm going to voice my suggestion.


Opinions are always welcome so long as they are done in a polite and constructive manner, whether you have been here since August or just yesterday . Welcome to TSM, and if you need anything please feel free to PM me.

DarkSolena wrote: I know I'm new and it's not up to me, but I'm going to voice my suggestion.
If you are a member of our community, then your voice is just as strong as any other and I'm glad to hear your thoughts!

DarkSolena wrote: I suggest that with the monster shout out to his buddies for reinforcements, that you make the circle smaller, or script it in someway to provide for the following tactic.

One tactic is to select one prey that's migrated away from the group and see if I can't get it to follow me over here, away from shouting distance of the group, then do battle with only that loner. (Timmy went off to pee but didn't come back.) Why is this a good tactic and not an exploit? I'll give my reason and leave the verdict up to you. I'd do this if I knew the group had a very good chance of slaughtering me, but that if I fought 1 monster at a time then I could probably survive.
If you are suggesting peeling of small groups from a larger group and asking if that is acceptable, I think it is. My above example consisted of the monsters just standing there and not responding to hits at all. Your suggestion just breaks the group up into manageable sizes. You still enter combat and have some level of risk. To me, that's tactics and not an exploit.

DarkSolena wrote: Before this week, I hadn't played NWN for months, so it's possible that what I described never happens in NWN for whatever reason. Maybe NWN monsters don't mill about adequately to provide that opportunity. But I've seen that tactic used in another game. If I screwed up and my target was close enough to draw his friends, I usually ended up running away for my life or dying. Was in a game system where dying had minimal penalties, and risky situations were ways to pass the time by yourself. Yeah, yeah, this is not that other game. But now I've given my suggestion, and I can rest in peace.

If we can add the above script this won't be a concern, but I again want to reiterate that my goal is not to make every battle a fight to the death barely survived. Again, basically, reverse the situations. If that monster was controlled by a person, would they act in the same manner? If the answer is a definitive "No", then it's a problem.

The Secret wrote: Does this include things like ninja looting?

If "ninja looting" means emptying the chests while other people (within your party or not) are fighting so you can get 'their' reward, then that is not in this category. However that is about as low a thing as anyone can do and there are special levels in Dante's Inferno for anyone that would do that.

If there is a different definition, then clarify and I'll try to answer that.

Quote: 1. Using Hide in Plain Sight to strike, fade, strike, fade, strike (aka "flicker fighting") so that you can hit the creature, fade out before it can return attack, then when it stops it's attack, hitting it again, then fade to repeat. It is not realistic to expect an opponent to get hit, but because you faded out immediately, for him to go, "Oh, I have a dagger in my chest but I don't see anyone. I'll just go back to wandering in a circle..."

Use it to get a first strike, even use it on occasion, but if I see it happening for battle after battle, that's not acceptable.

"The Hide in Plain Sight, I thought that form of combat was allowed seeing as that's what the PrC of Shadowdancer is. RP-wise, isn't that what a ShadowDancer does? The proposed way of fighting, makes that PrC a Rogue (or something similar), not a shadow dancer. I personally don't like the PrC or ever plan on playing it, but as this is something that can be countered with true seeing spell and invested skill points in detection, that shouldn't it be a valid form of fighting?
ex. I remember when the SD prc first came out, and myself and two others were in a competition and fought in teams of three. I had a cleric, and the other two were paladins. Our opposition was a spellcaster and something else, as well as a SD; the SD fought in such a manner of hit and hides. I myself was close to dying but we combated him with throwing caltraps around us and using area of affect spells till we stunned him, eventually winning the competition (1st golden lions if anyone remembers). "
I'm still slightly confused on this so ill look into it more. it seems that there are some differences between pvp and pve... mostly as the pvp opponent would be much smarter. make ai pvp smart?

Stonewyvern wrote: The Secret wrote: Does this include things like ninja looting?

If "ninja looting" means emptying the chests while other people (within your party or not) are fighting so you can get 'their' reward, then that is not in this category. However that is about as low a thing as anyone can do and there are special levels in Dante's Inferno for anyone that would do that.

If there is a different definition, then clarify and I'll try to answer that.


It would include not only that but also stealth classes sneaking through a dungeon to get the contents of it's chest and then leaving their spawns behind for other people or for the next time they decide to run through a cave without touching anything other then the gold inside.

DarkSolena wrote: I know I'm new and it's not up to me, but I'm going to voice my suggestion.
As builder I can say, your input and bug report are certainly helpful keep 'm coming!

Quote: I suggest that with the monster shout out to his buddies for reinforcements, that you make the circle smaller, or script it in someway to provide for the following tactic.

One tactic is to select one prey that's migrated away from the group and see if I can't get it to follow me over here, away from shouting distance of the group, then do battle with only that loner. (Timmy went off to pee but didn't come back.) Why is this a good tactic and not an exploit? I'll give my reason and leave the verdict up to you. I'd do this if I knew the group had a very good chance of slaughtering me, but that if I fought 1 monster at a time then I could probably survive.
That is actually how I'd implement it. Any monsters within a certain radius of the critter getting hit (say, 10 ft?) will hear the "cry for help". And follow the wounded in whatever action he/she takes.

Quote: Before this week, I hadn't played NWN for months, so it's possible that what I described never happens in NWN for whatever reason. Maybe NWN monsters don't mill about adequately to provide that opportunity. But I've seen that tactic used in another game. If I screwed up and my target was close enough to draw his friends, I usually ended up running away for my life or dying. Was in a game system where dying had minimal penalties, and risky situations were ways to pass the time by yourself. Yeah, yeah, this is not that other game. But now I've given my suggestion, and I can rest in peace.
Nah. It's poor default AI . Or in this case AS. (Artificial Stupidity)

I think ninja looting is looting while in hiding, with such a high hide/ms that monsters simply can't see you. You can get the loot without ever getting noticed...

This too can be fixed by script, I think. The on-open event that those chests have can be used to force-decloak a person. Push comes to shove, the nearest critter gets TS for a few seconds to deal with it... Opening a chest already removes any invisibility effects, so cancelling hide seems a logical next step.

The Secret wrote: It would include not only that but also stealth classes sneaking through a dungeon to get the contents of it's chest and then leaving their spawns behind for other people or for the next time they decide to run through a cave without touching anything other then the gold inside.

Ok, as for the above reference to stealing that I used, remember one important thing that should be General Order #1 for our server. We are friends and gamers together. I don't care if billy is playing an elf hating half-orc and spits on timmy who's PC is an elf. That is "in game" attitude and NOT an attitude that I want players to have. Stealing from another PLAYER like that is just plain wrong. I have the patience of a saint, but don't let me be the one to catch a player doing something like that.

As for the idea of sneaking through a dungeon to loot freely, in my view, that has two problems. The first does relate since the rogue would be going through the dungeon without risk for the most part. The real issue here though is the creatures that are left behind for some other person to wander into. Just as we ask players to clean up their spawns, this is the same, but much much worse. I can understand and forgive those players that die fighting their spawns and don't return immediately, but not a rogue that spawns and sneaks away. Again, I do not recommend my catching a player doing this as being a healthy option for their PC...

So far two great ideas have come from this:

Opening a chest or door should render the person visible.

and

Attacking a creature should provoke movement / attacks from creatures no matter if they are out of the sight line of said creature.

Both of these ideas if implemented would make this game even more enjoyable.

There is nothing worse than popping off creatures from a distance and them just standing around watching each other die.

caileanhawk wrote: So far two great ideas have come from this:

Opening a chest or door should render the person visible.

and

Attacking a creature should provoke movement / attacks from creatures no matter if they are out of the sight line of said creature.

Both of these ideas if implemented would make this game even more enjoyable.

There is nothing worse than popping off creatures from a distance and them just standing around watching each other die.

I'm not sure if I agree about the door opening but then again,I don't really have a strong opinion about it, but in very recent days, I have either seen first hand or heard from others about the very strong possibility of ninja looting going on. That really irritates me and I'd be all for anything that would discourage or prevent it.